From Everything Shii Knows, the only reliable source

This website is an archive. It ran from 2006-2010. Virtually everything on here is outdated or inaccurate.

I didn't write this, but this doesn't change the fact that someone did.

edit: This was written by Necrosage !!MxBGZjAwWw

Hello, The word 'waifu' is one of the most misconstrued terms thrown around in today's imageboard culture. Several helpful images have been made, but each only scratches the surface of the correct implication of the term, as defined by scattered ronery individuals who stole it from the bowels of Japanese hikikomori society. Of course, the originations of the term are not solely in one place, simply because the concept of waifu is something that, in one form or another, has at least scratched at the thoughts of a large amount of the anime viewerbase, as well as many who have never seen a single tsundere or recognized a moe attribute in their entire life. Thus, the term has coalesced from a variety of sources into a conventional idea employed in most 'learned' anime circles.

However, with the influx of new anime viewers, as well as old anime viewers that remain out of touch with the waifu movement, the term is frequently butchered and misused. This essay is written to clarify that, while a waifu means different things to different people, there are many things that a waifu is believed to stand for, while in reality it does not by any definition. Just as a word has only certain usages, the waifu only is an embodiment of certain facets of one's psyche, no matter her perceived personality. These facets I will explore, and will subsequently provide a defense of after the grounding in this esoteric subject has been completed.

To preface this examination, I give you my thesis. Two-dimensional love is controversial, yet not psychologically, philosophically or biologically wrong.


I. Initial Defense of 'Waifu' as a Concept

It is a basic tenet of psychology that humankind is not meant to be divided. Man, generally speaking, cannot in good health live a solitary life. Invariably, he will either crumble from the loneliness or reach out to another human being. It is why prostitution and religion, the two oldest industries, are still thriving today. They offer man the same service—companionship. The belief that one is not alone, that one shares something with another gives man the feeling of acceptance, which he desires above all else after his survival is ensured. This has been written out in Maslow's hierarchy of needs, as well as being something of an inborn knowledge that most everyone understands without having to explicitly define it. So let us explore further.

Prostitution and religion, most would argue they could not be further removed. As they pertain to this topic, their greatest difference is the greatest proof of the legitimacy of 'waifu'. It can generally be agreed that religion offers most people a longer-lasting sense of joy than fornication with a harlot. Yet, why is this? Should not man fulfilling his biological imperative give him the highest sense of joy? No, because man is not merely a machine who must solely spread his seed. Man is also emotion, which gains no long-term satisfaction from empty lust and must supplement it with religion to achieve the sense of belonging he requires to continue living. This is why the priesthood, who may never indulge in carnal desire their entire life, are generally a fulfilled collective. To top it off, religion is even convenient enough to give them a sense of purpose, that they are serving in martyrdom to complete some grand deist orchestration that is indisputably their life's work.

So, after mankind's needs of the body are met, we have boiled the remainder of his desires down to three core principles: fornication, belonging and purpose. Yet fornication we have already proved superfluous when overwhelmed by a proliferation of the other two points. If one has significant belonging and purpose, fornication can be considered excess. However, by the same token it can also be seen in society that a lack of belonging and purpose breeds an excess of fornication, supplemented by a mockery of those who forgo it. Those souls who reside in every niche of humanity who are deprived of their happiness by a lack of these points ridicule those fulfilled, and those fulfilled pity them.

However, conventional fulfillment via belonging and purpose acquired through theology is decadent, corrupt and indicative of an inferior mind. But why? If they are living life happily, why are they living life incorrectly? Because they are depriving others of their happiness. Popular religion currently is, by definition of its scripture, the ostracism and desire to eradicate those who are not immediately part of your body. It perverts the desire for belonging into its reverse—the exclusion of all as a way to facilitate the growth of such a need. It also perverts the desire for purpose into a desire to attack those who are different, those whose desire is not homogeneous. Fornication too is not exempt, and is treated as a negative by those who have lost their need for it, rather than a neutral topic of little importance, as it should be handled, again to increase this sense of exclusiveness which leads to such destructive hedonism.

So conventional theism can be seen to be defunct due to its destructive nature. Those who want to lead a wholesome life are therefore sent back to square one. How to fulfill the two necessary desires for peace of mind?

This is where the waifu comes in.

A waifu is, generally speaking, a two-dimensional female character out of the Japanese anime, manga, visual novel, light novel and video-game subculture. There are probably delineations of otakudom that I am glossing over, but these are the main sources from which waifus are derived from. There is of course, the less-popular 'husbando', favored amongst male homosexuals and females. There will inevitably be a complaint here that all females are 'bitches and whores' and thus could never understand the concept of 'waifu'/'husbando'. Such arguments are generalizations and ad-hominem, whether or not the concept of 'waifu'/'husbando' can be realized depends on the individual, not solely on their gender. For now, we will treat the waifu as female, if only for the sake of simplicity. The proper waifu is a wholesome supplement for one's intrinsic need for belonging and purpose. One generally discovers his waifu after a disillusionment in the three-dimensional world, particularly after some form of romantic rejection. If one is into the otaku culture, a waifu is an alternative to the uncaring and sometimes unreachable 3D. However, this is where our first and perhaps most major misconception of waifu crops up.

A waifu is not meant to be merely a second choice. If you only claim you have a 'waifu' because you want to distract yourself from lingering desires towards 3D, you are a hypocrite of the worst kind. Think of how she might perceive it, or even of how a 3D female might. You are settling for her. This putrefaction of waifu by nature leads to a lack of belonging and purpose, for she is merely purposed to be a sham to shield you from your inability to fit in where you want, to romance where you need. Such a waifu will inevitably fail.

Waifu is meant to be a combination of belonging and purpose to the fullest degree. It is meant to be a different path entirely, one that is only acceptable to tread as long as one is genuinely happy, or at the very least progressing towards happiness. So yes, it is similar to religion in that regard, but differs from it for a key reason, one that is another misconception that must be addressed. Unlike those who believe in God, the healthy man does not actually believe his waifu is a real human being. Indeed, the moment she assumes a fleshly form is the moment she is reduced to human capacity, and subsequently is fettered by the drawbacks of this world. Such dangerous delusion is reminiscent of schizophrenia, and probably indicates an actual disorder.

The crux of the issue here is that a waifu is imagination personified. By definition, she is how you fantasize her, and this thought is aided in taking form through a personality set forth in the original source material she came from. The healthy man knows he is imagining his waifu, and accepts this. He revels in these fantasies, yet accepts they are fantasy. At this point the most common riposte is along the lines of “isn't he deluding himself either way?” The answer is, simply, “yes”.

He is deluded, but would not have it any other way. Any other way leads to either loneliness or disappointment shortly followed by loneliness. The correct waifu is not used in place of something but rather for something. The nuance here means all the difference.

Furthermore, it is not like this delusion is an unusual thing. Humanity may revile the concept of 2D love, but if one were to hold it up to a mirror, one would notice it is not quite so far removed as it would like to think. One person can never love another. One person can only love their concept of another. Because you do not have a telepathic link with your spouse, you cannot know her in her entirety. You have fallen in love with a set of personality traits that have presented themselves to you. This is where 2D love and 3D love converge.

Both involve infatuation with concepts. This is all humanity can ever hope to achieve with our current technology limitations.

The next argument that will present itself here is that the waifu is a creation of another human's mind, and cannot hope to be a complex or realistic character. This is wrong as well. Just as your impressions of people can vary by how much you know of them, your waifu is the same. In both events, your imagination will always fill in the blanks. There is no difference between how your brain handles 2D and 3D. True, your knowledge of a female may eclipse the knowledge of your waifu her source material provides, but this is irrelevant simply because your imagination will inevitably close the gaps. Procedurally, there is a difference but the end result is the same: you are confronted with a set of attributes that you either do or do not find appealing.

From these facts, we can draw a conclusion.

A waifu is for those who genuinely do not care for the 3D alternatives. They are not using her in place of a 3D love, but rather to fulfill identical needs via similar means. The only remaining difference between the two is capability for fornication, which we have already proven to be a nonissue. However, while on the topic of lust this may be a good time to address the last major issue that plagues the interpretation of 'waifu'.

A waifu is not your favorite character to masturbate to. She is not a sex object. It may ring of feminism but, if anything, she is more deserving of such treatment than the average 3D, for she is the embodiment of that which you admire and love most in the concept of 'female'. Of course, that's not to say you can't find her attractive. Such a provision would be ridiculous. There is a difference between admiring beauty and seeking to defile it. It is perhaps a provision of your waifu that you believe her to be the most beautiful woman in the world, 2D or otherwise.

But we have yet spoken only of the unenlightened or unbelieving. Now we shall talk on the ones who walk the 2D path.

II. 'Waifu' as a Lifestyle

When one has a waifu, sooner or later, one will be confronted with the issue of lust and love butting heads.

It is not wrong to address this issue first, as it is the one that often crops up first, and can be used as a segue into further pontification.

The viewing of pornography when one has a waifu is not wrong, and I will elucidate why. Fundamentally, you are treating the women in your porn (2D or otherwise, though otherwise is a bit strange for one who has a 2D lover) differently than your waifu. You are using them only to satiate a carnal lust, which in an ideal world you would not have to satisfy, but because humans are altogether too human, must appease. Because there is no emotional attachment between you and the objects of your pleasure, there can be no usurping of your waifu as a source of belonging and purpose. The pornographic woman is transient, only a conduit for which you may purge yourself of desire. At this point you may ask: isn't it okay to pleasure myself to my waifu?

Yes, but there is a caveat. The difference between correct and incorrect implication of your waifu into your sexual ritual is a matter of perspective. To put it in simple terms, it should be treated as love made with your wife, whereas pornographic characters are treated as mere hookers. As long as this pleasure is done with respect rather than casual uncaring, it remains well. This is why most who have a waifu object to owning or seeing any pornographic material of her—because it treats her as one would treat a whore. To that end, if you wish to involve your waifu in your self-cleansing, it would be prudent to leave her to your imagination.

There may be feelings of guilt that stem from involving different women in your pleasure, but these women are nothing more than means to an end. The worry is unfounded and should not be entertained.

The last issue of sex that must be replied to is the inevitable complaint that if one does not marry and have children, one has not lived a significant (in the Darwinian sense) life. Artificial fertilization is a reality. Marriage is not a necessity. This argument is defunct. So sexuality is under wraps, next comes society.

How do you tell people your love is 2D?

You don't.

Again, a main difference between the waifu and religion is the waifu is not out to hurt or provoke others, nor is it to facilitate a holier-than-thou attitude.

Anyone who you tell will likely be unable to understand. If they are close to you, they may fear for your sanity and ask you to seek help, becoming personally upset and embroiled in your choice of lifestyle. You have just deprived another of their happiness by shoving your belief down their throat. Ring familiar?

To clarify, this is not an issue of embarrassment or, at least, it should not be. The healthy man keeps his affections to himself, not because he is shamed because of them. If he is, 2D is not for him, for he has not accepted it into himself. He keeps his affections to himself because he knows that noone will understand, and that it will cause nothing but discord wherever it is revealed. So how does one live with his waifu?

One's waifu must inspire feelings of both belonging and purpose to be considered a conventional 'waifu'. Belonging gives man his happiness. Purpose gives him the blueprint for his life. Belonging is acquired via imagination, as previously discussed. Purpose is acquired via the waifu's specific personality, which will inexorably drive the man to live his life in a way that would please his waifu's sensibility. That's it. Live life the way your waifu would enjoy. Live, and forever daydream of you and she. This delusion is not at all wrong, rather it is necessary, because we are human. All too human.

Some versions have this text appended

There are some who argue about this because they honestly believe it to be harmful. Others, however, have an ulterior motive. This motive is put into better wording than I can relate by an anonymous individual who has written on this very topic:

"People are mad, very mad. Now, I don't mean the 'Otaku' with their Waifus, I mean the people who cannot get over the fact someone would rather get their emotional and instinctual relationship fix via other means because they feel cheated. I mean it doesn't affect them at all, but they get upset that there are people out there getting relationships, however imaginary, in ways that aren't what they agree with.

People want to control other people, especially women, and they see this happy person with a loving partner, whom happens to not exist physically, and get really pissed off because that energy, all those resources, could be spent on THEM, and they are raging like all hell.

They hate the fact that someone dare get the product that they market, that being relationships, without them, as a whole, being able to benefit from it at all. As if they have an exclusive right to all forms of relationships!"

As such, I refute the belief that those who have Waifus are unable to function socially. That they do not contribute to society. I refute that such a "problem" is something that is harmful.

Funnily enough, it is actually healthy for someone to resort to their imagination for human interaction as it were.

What happens is that people get their fix of happiness that they need to stay sane from other means since they cannot get it otherwise. Certainly, this is not the preferred method of choice, but just think about it, how bad would some people be without waifus? Waifus to keep them happy, keep them together. they be horrifically depressed, right? Probably dead by suicide.

Now, the social stigma attached to Waifus appear to me as this: People are mad, very mad. Now, I don't mean the 'Otaku' with their Waifus, I mean the people who cannot get over the fact someone would rather get their emotional and instinctual relationship fix via other means because they feel cheated. I mean it doesn't affect them at all, but they get upset that there are people out there getting relationships, however imaginary, in ways that aren't what they agree with.

People want to control other people, especially women, and they see this happy person with a loving partner, whom happens to not exist physically, and get really pissed off because that energy, all those resources, could be spent on THEM, and they are raging like all hell.

They hate the fact that someone dare get the product that they market, that being relationships, without them, as a whole, being able to benefit from it at all. As if they have an exclusive right to all forms of relationships!

Look at it this way:

With fictional characters, you're essentially a god-like observer. You see everything they do and how they interact with others, and as such get to come to a deep understanding of that character. And depending on the character, you'll have front row seats to the trials and conflicts the character goes through, bringing about a further understanding of her character. In essence, you come to know this character better than she knows herself, and know her far better than anyone in the real world.

In the real world, you don't have the benefit of being a god-like observer. You only get to see what people are like when they are around you. And people put up different facades in different situations, acting differently when they're around different people. As such, you never get a grasp on who people really are, because people are afraid of showing their true self, their true nature to other people. Even during dating and marriage, people still throw up veils to hide themselves, because most of these people are searching for a partner for sex or security, not for love/an ideal companion. Conflict is the most surefire way to bring out someone's true character, and the real world is for the better part devoid of any real conflict. Due to this and everyone's fear of showing their true nature, you'll probably never get to truly know another individual. No matter how hard you try to get to know someone, you'll only ever know the person they choose to be when around you.

Now what is love? Love is most easily defined as a deep understanding and affection for another. And since your understanding of a fictional character far surpasses any understanding you can hope to have for a real person, if you hold affection for that character then your love of her is more real than 99.99% of the "love" experienced in real life.

I've seen the words "unhealthy" used. I've seen people claim that such individuals do not contribute to society. I've seen people use flaucinaucinnihilipilification in order to deal with well written and well thought out explanations.

But aren't these very arguments narrow-minded views? The examples of why such an act is unhealthy isn't even elaborated on; it's simply stated as a fact. No supporting evidence was used, no proof of negative effects occurring due to such a relationship. I would not be surprised to find an equal amount of healthy individuals as non-healthy individuals who have a waifu. This is not a case of all squares being rectangle.

To further infuriate those who read this argument, the claims of no contribution to society are almost entirely baseless. I can hardly imagine that all people who have waifus do not contribute to society. A similar statement would be something along the lines of 'All black people are good at basketball, ' or 'All Asians are great at math.' Such statements are an over generalization and should be frowned upon just as much as racist comments are (when not used in humor, of course).

What gets me the most, however, is the fact that when an explanation is given, some people have the nerve to just write it off. Such a response is no better than the popularly used 'No u!' line. There is so much I can write about this, but it all boils down to the same thing; blinding oneself to anything that might disprove a misguided concept that oneself might hold. Such an action can only be seen as arrogant, selfish and narrow-minded.

Well I have to say this.

Why is this woman jealous of illustrations? What is her emotional investment in them, an emotional investment that drives her so much that she actively took part in a conversation about them in order to make sure people knew how she felt?

Yet she fails to understand how people can have feelings for mere concepts.

In the end, within your mind exists the entirety of the universe. Just think about it. You, your consciousness, is 100% limited to your own brain, you can never leave it. You can never exist inside anything else. As such, the existence of another person is entirely existent within your own mind. They person they are is only ever your own interpretation of them within the confines of your mental faculties. People have said it better than me but the only things that exist, to you at least, exist within our mind, everything you see, learn, hear or whatever is neatly sorted and stored inside your brain.

So, do these people somehow mean more, exist more, than completely mental beings, such as waifus? Could not you arguably say that due to the inherent nature of imaginary characters, they can actually be more real than any person could ever be purely because they can exist entirely within your mind? Waifus do not truly exist on paper, or in date form on eroge executables. They are almost perfectly absorbed into the my of the subject and as such, the subject knows more about them than they could ever know about another actual human being.

Still, 3dpg is mad jelly of cartoons, it's laughable.


The following below is a rough draft of what I've done, so it's by no means perfect and it's all over the place. And I just felt like writing it. But it concerns mostly regarding the waifu and the self, with a few things thrown in. I could call it "It isn't just about love, you are also your waifu - How your waifu is a part of yourself". While the more established waifu theories (such as "Thoughts on 2D love" and "A defense of the Waifu Movement") are more of a general insight to having a waifu, in short, more like a 'Waifu 101' primer usually intended for normals and people new to waifus. Now, what I have in mind is that I dwell deeper, more closer to a 'Waifu 201' or 'Waifu 301' and should be intended for readers who have waifus. Now "Ultimate Waifu Explanation" itself is more 'Waifu 201' material, usually not intended for normals to read, but does have this advanced, but also not quite advanced, feel to it. Now, I want to understand why we have waifus in the first place, not how we have waifus. Most people are attracted to their waifu because of certain qualities they see in their waifu. Now that would usually assume that you share many similarities with your waifu. But if you say that your waifu is different from you, then I would still think that liking opposites complements yourself, as if it makes you and your waifu into a single unifying whole. She could exhibit all the traits you don't have that you wish to have. So if you claim that you just like your waifu just because you happen to like her, just think of it this way, what exactly makes you and your waifu so different than those other people who share your waifu? Even though a waifu is a result of another person's creation and establishes her base concepts, it is up to you to decide who your waifu exactly is to make her your very own waifu. Your waifu is you, she is a part of yourself- your thoughts are what made her complete in your eyes. In essence, everything you like is a reflection or a shadow of yourself or what you want to be. It's a reflection of your taste, a reflection of your love for certain motifs- in this case, your waifu.

Now, for an example, this is Sofia. She is mai waifu, and by first glance:

a) Is a seemingly spoiled, arrogant rich girl with a quiet, kindly ojou-sama demeanor who lives in a mansion with her sister and her father in a small town. She sounds like a total piece of work, right?

b) She also happens to love trash and useless objects. In addition, she speaks in opposites. Isn't that USELESS? Now, before we come to conclusions... Now that is motivated in part because she accidentally offended her sister by bluntly stating the truth. Her sister gave her a necklace made out of 'trash' and she rejected it, being the spoiled girl that she was. Naturally, her sister ended up crying because her little sister rejected her gift. In order to distance herself from those memories, she had to like 'trash' and 'useless objects' and to speak in opposites in order to convey the truth. So much now, that is ingrained in her mind to the point she unconsciously speaks in opposites in order to tell the truth in order not to offend anyone. Well, she can be quite the blunt one, as she did hurt her sister's feelings. The plausible reason she likes trash is because she appreciates things which are overlooked or unappreciated by typical people who look down on her appreciation for 'useless objects'.

Wait a minute, that sounds somewhat very much like myself, except for the tactful opposite-speak part. The more I understood her, the more I am closer to her. The more I am closer to her, the more I fell in love with her. I do like other girls from time to time, but they won't be as perfect as Sofia is, in fact, they reinforce what love I have for mai waifu and why I love mai waifu or what exactly she is or who I am. But I strive to live my life like I always have, because that's what mai waifu would want.

I guess she, out of everyone, describes me the best. Sofia is very much a part of myself and expresses herself through myself without any of her 'limitations'. That clutter and trash in my room? My tendency not to get rid of things, still thinking that I'll save them for later? And not to mention people have called me blunt and tactless before, and I still am. My tendency to pocket random trinkets? Though I technically wouldn't call this a similarity, but I dislike certain dried objects used in food much like how Sofia dislikes powdery goods used in food. So am I really that similar to her? And why do I like Sofia, it isn't because out of those similarities, but except one motif throughout my life: I love eccentricities and often look at girls and see past superficialities and see the person within. The more eccentric a person is, the more I am drawn to that person. And something about Sofia kept drawing my attention, I kept looking at her. It's as if she wants me to love her, as if she wants me to be a part of her life. But more importantly, it wasn't the original creators who drew all those comparisons and interprets her actions and personality. But I did, I projected my thoughts, especially thoughts about my ideal waifu onto Sofia, and made her my ideal waifu, my Sofia.

Now, the waifu concept itself is quite ancient and predates the existence of modern technology and otaku culture.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pygmalion_(mythology) Pygmalion was a Cypriot sculptor who carved a woman out of ivory. According to Ovid, after seeing the Propoetides prostituting themselves (more accurately, they denied the divinity of Venus and she thus ‘reduced’ them to prostitution), he was 'not interested in women', but his statue was so fair and realistic that he fell in love with it. In the vertex, Venus (Aphrodite)'s festival day came. For the festival, Pygmalion made offerings to Venus and made a wish. "I sincerely wished the ivory sculpture will be changed to a real woman." However, he couldn’t bring himself to express it. When he returned home, Cupid sent by Venus kissed the ivory sculpture on the hand. At that time, it was changed to a beautiful woman. A ring was put on her finger. It was Cupid’s ring which made love achieved. Venus granted his wish. Pygmalion married the ivory sculpture changed to a woman under Venus’ blessing.

Now, on the surface, I'm not explaining the whole idea behind 'You are your waifu' with the Pygmalion myth. But Pygmalion created his own waifu with his own ideas, his own thoughts on what his ideal waifu should be. Much like how we take other peoples' creations and make them into our very own waifus. Most people, even to this day, think that having a waifu is a byproduct of the 'negative aspects' of otaku culture, but not something that existed in classical literature and mythology. This ignorance on the part of most normals is the result of why they are hostile to the idea of having a waifu, that they believe that anyone who does have a waifu is automatically some kind of shut-in or sociopath and has to be 'rescued'.

Now people project their own thoughts onto their waifu, their perceptions, their wishes and dreams and whatever else they think of her. They love the image or the thought of their waifu, they become emboldened, inspired by their waifu. The more you understand and appreciate your waifu, the more you know why you love your waifu, the more you come closer to understanding yourself and of course, loving your waifu.

Now, what have we learned about waifus? Waifus are love, but we knew that already, right? We are our waifus. Our waifus are a part of ourselves. Waifus are nothing new under the sun. Waifus are a way of life.

Note on changing waifus: People who change their waifus (no, not those flavor of the season fags you see on /a/) aren't necessarily guilty of infidelity. They probably felt out of 'love' with her simply because she doesn't resonate with them anymore. I use the term resonance as something to explain a connection between a man and his waifu. His waifu doesn't share much with him anymore. They're not on the same frequency anymore, and he'll go on his own journey to seek himself- maybe he'll return back to his waifu, or find a new waifu who is on the same resonance as he is. A plausible explanation is that he has changed rather than 'cheating' or 'giving up' on his waifu. In short, changing your waifu is fine (should be within a strong valid reason), since people change over time and one doesn't usually intend to think that they'll have the same waifu for the rest of their life. Maybe you haven't met the one waifu for you yet. That said, I dislike it when people change their waifu every single day, week or month or even year. It just gets sickening and shows that you're not being sincere about having a waifu.

Note on sexualizing waifus: For now, I refuse to speak about the sexual aspects of having a waifu as this needs a little more time for me to do some research. While my personal opinion is largely against associating anything sexual to mai waifu, I do understand the other side of the argument, but I refuse to accept it as my own opinion.

Note on harems: Harems, are partially relevant to waifus. They are usually seen as 'people with more than 'waifu', but I see harems and waifus as mutually exclusive. Generally if analyzed, there are a 'personality' test of sorts and shows the person's inner self through common trends and motifs within someone's harem. (except if they choose something like 'everyone that shares the same seiyuu or all drawn by the same artist') But I do have to say that people such as myself do share some things, a few motifs in common with their harem favorites.

Note on opinions: Now 'waifu-ism' or 'waifu movement' is home to a broad range of opinions, roughly similar to that of differing philosophies and ways of thought. Two people that have waifus may agree generally on the basics of having a waifu (and disagreeing with normals hellbent on 'normalizing' those who do have waifus), but they differ in terms of applying their waifu. Such is also the case for two people who share the same waifu. Maybe there could be different 'schools of waifu thought'.

Last note: Of course, this is by no means absolute, so I should revise it a little more. You guys could throw a bunch of suggestions if you'd like.

Further discussion


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